New Z Scale Forum?
I’ve been in both a reflective as well as a looking-forward mood the past week or so regarding things that pertain to Z scale, the overall community and my own Ztrains.com. Earlier this year I moved my site to this new software platform and overall I think it’s has been a solid success. Bit of a learning curve but that was to be expected.
There are still tweaks here and there that are needed but on balance, I believe it’s a solid online place for Z scale. As with any online resource I think controlled growth is a good idea, sort of a publish or perish thing.
In addition, this past week by coincidence, I’ve had to good fortune to speak to a few really good guys on the phone about Z scale and it’s been interesting and a little enlightening for me. What I found most interesting was their participation, or lack thereof, on the public Z scale forums. The guys I spoke with are exactly the kind of people I’d like to see on forums: thoughtful, excited about Z scale, talented and moving forward… but currently they’re not keen on the forums.
Of all the guys I spoke with, only one frequents the forums and even he told me he doesn’t go there all too often as he thinks there’s not enough modeling talk going on. Much as it pains me to say it, I agreed with him. Maybe it’s the fact that we’re in what some consider to be a cute scale but I’m so tired of reading a promising forum thread that degrades into some weird mix of baby talk (I wish I was kidding about this) and inside jokes. To be fair this doesn’t happen in all threads, but it happens enough that many modelers just don’t participate.
I figured I might be being a bit unfair, maybe too harsh, so this past week I’ve been checking out several pay forums as well as forums for our larger scale cousin, N scale. In an objective frame of mind, I was impressed about how good some of the threads were. Lots of great information and ideas were passed around… and not a snippet of baby talk.
No forum is perfect and I realize I might have just caught these other forums on a really good week, but given the phone conversations I had with these other Z scalers, I’m not alone in my frustration.
Between being a bit unhappy with some of the current forum tones and looking at my own Ztrains.com and what direction I need to go in, I’ve been (once again) kicking around the idea of establishing a new Z scale forum. Earlier this week I wrote about how change is often a good thing maybe I need to make a change, in this case a forum addition right here at Ztrains.com.
Great long threads about Z modeling: do I use this airbrush or that, how do you build your deciduous trees, the best way to dissemble an MTL or AZL loco. You know, real modeling talk. Maybe I’m just a cockeyed optimist, but I think it’s possible. As I wrote earlier in the week, I might even charge a few bucks to join and have policies that are enforced.
We’ll see, but it’s a heck of a good dream and frankly I think it would be a good, no-nonsense resource for the scale. Goo goo gaa gaa baby!
What do you think?
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The trouble I find with the ultra serious modeling forums is the elitist attitude that usually accompanies them. When I first started in the scale I would ask questions only to be asked to search the forum. I was posting in a newbie forum and still got attitude.
I prefer the fun and friendly attitude of the current Z scale forums. Also I don’t need to talk about modeling all the time, and some of these people have become good friends. If I want to chat in a public forum in an off topic thread that’s what I want to do. If I am forced to act a certain way then that just doesn’t sound like its for me. I could spend my couple bucks on books or magazines for instruction.
I agree, nothing worse than being told to “Search The Forums” when you’re already on a forum. Never understood that.
As far as the current forums, there are tons of people signed up and just a fraction of these users ever post. In an effort to avoid elitist circles (though I really don’t see this in more focused forums, just good modeling), what we tend to end up with is cliques and inside chatter that isn’t very inviting to new model railroaders. The proof of this is the lack of new users posting and established Z scalers lack of participation.
I also agree that subscription forums may not be to everyone’s liking but they would keep modeling forums on modeling. Very much the goal for some.
I think it’s a matter of what we’re all looking for, as individuals, to get out of a Z scale forum.
John
Ztrains
Jeffrey MacHan started the Z_Scale Yahoo groups back in 1999. He did it to promote Z scale and the Val Ease Central RR. The VECRR was a 2 suitcase Z scale layout that eventually grew to 3 cases. Jeffrey took his layout to NMRA national shows and worked hard to have Z scale become a recognized scale. I don’t remember which year, but he eventually won an award at a NMRA NTS. Currently there is a VECRR Yahoo Group. You should visit it.
While Jeffrey hosted the Z_Scale groups there were no silly posts. He kept an iron fist. After he relinquished being the host of Z_Scale groups it became a forum where the majority of the posts are gratuitus plater. A whole lot of Awwwesomes and Greats. Not anything to really advance the scale. Sometimes one criticism is worth 10,000 awesome.
If you have questions about Z scale modeling, go to the Z_scale Yahoo Groups and look in the Z Scale enZyclopedia. Most questions can be answered there. If you can’t find the answer in the enZyclopedia, then ask on the forum. By reading the enZyclopedia you will find answers even before you realize that you may have a question.
Bill,
Back when it was the sole, or at least predominant, forum the Yahoo group was invaluable and the resources on that site are still valid of course. We now have a whole new crop of locos which run on an entirely new drive train, we have scenic materials now that even a few years ago were a real pain to find and we have cottage manufacturers producing things, quickly, that we would have run to get our hands on a decade ago.
We also have as, you pointed out, the silliness as the new, near de facto standard. Lots of folks it seems like this and that’s fine if that’s what a forum owner endorses.
I like to search out high modeling and forum standards on the web, regardless of the scale, and tend to gravitate towards them to learn and to improve my modeling. I’m not alone in this as I know the online Z scale community has suffered as we’ve lost some really talented people who grew weary of the de facto silliness.
John
Ztrains
I’m not sure we need another forum, but I’ve been plenty wrong in the past. Z is a small scale in its participation and you see that clearly on Trainboard, Z Central, Yahoo Z and even Railwire Z. I see the same names across the board and seldom a new face. I think it’s just the nature of the beast.
Back in the mid early 90′s I was a member of Steel Navy forum and things were pretty heady for ship modelers back then. I check back in from time to time, and you know what…same guys 20 years later talken’ about the same things. Very little modeling or technique sharing, lots of Pro Military babble and lots of arguments. I think you would be better off thinking about a new approach instead of trying to re-invent the egg. :o)
Joe D’Amato
Hi Joe,
It is unfortunate, I think, that we do have a lot of active Z scalers but we don’t often hear from them. As I mentioned in the piece I know of talented and previously active forum members who got turned off by some of the behavior.
Your points regarding the Steel Navy forum really illustrate this kind of less-then-ideal forum behavior.
With your modeling skills, you are exactly the kind of person that Steel Navy forum should have worked hard to keep! Instead, as you say, 20 years later and there’s no real progression on that forum.
I’d hate to see this happen in Z, just when we have so much positive activity from our manufacturers, both the large and the cottage varieties.
John
Ztrains
John, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head, and I find the idea of a strict, modeling based forum an absolute grand idea. But to call the “other talk”, baby talk, is a bit over the top.
If we think of the offerings on the Internet as television stations, we have numerous stations (or websites) we can go to. Compare it to watching the news. We can watch our local news a few times a day, where we hear the local chatter, and talk of who won the flower show mixed in with what’s going on in the war in Afghanistan. OR we can change the channel and watch a strictly news only channel and bypass the flower show and chatter all together. Both are important channels, it just depends on what’s important to you at the time. Imagine if all of the channels had only hard news… life would be very boring, wouldn’t it? And imagine if it were the other way around, we could end up less knowledgeable.
Now when we convert this analogy over to the Z scale offerings on the Internet, we see there are quite few of the local news shows, but not one hard news channel like you have proposed. It’s something that is lacking and you, or someone, have a definite niche that can be filled.
I would certainly join, just don’t price yourself out of the market before you get started. And as everyone has their own degree of ability, perhaps an area for newbie’s as well as seasoned pros might be in order. Or possibly three or four levels; Beginner, Intermediate, Accomplished, and Pro… because the first time I read someone say “Search The Forums”, I’m outta there!
Joe (Zcratchman)
Joe,
The first time someone said “Search The Forums”, they’d be outta there :)
Your analogy to the TV stations and variety is a good one. I just like the idea of the channels (in this case forum topics) staying on point within their topic structure. It’s when a single good thread begins and then abruptly turns to silliness or a flame war… that’s what I don’t care for. When it happens repeatedly, fewer people participate and a forum stagnates.
Off-topic sections are great… if you want to go there you can. It’s just when it all becomes a mix of off-topic, that’s where it loses me and others I believe.
John
Ztrains
John, as you may recall, I wrote a vaguely similar post quite a long time ago on 1:220. Since then, we have corresponded on this topic quite often and, for the most part, I tend to agree with some of your assertions, even though it tends to ruffle feathers.
However, in my opinion you have, I regret to say, gone beyond merely ruffling feathers and have successfully insulted some members of a certain forum with your unfortunate choice of words. “Goo goo gaa gaa” imparts entirely the wrong impression. Instead of just chit-chat, it infers the forum members are childish and incompetent. I believe your post would have been accepted more kindly had you stuck with something along the lines of “blah, blah,” as I had in my similar column.
I know you well enough to realize you did not intend to suggest these folks are babbling children, so I do think that an apology is in order. At least, that’s what I recommend, for what it’s worth; the damage having been done, it’s up to those who took offense to accept it or not.
Respectfully,
David
Hi David,
It really is unfortunate that a few people chose to take this and make it personal instead of the tongue-in-cheek title it was. I didn’t mention any specific forums or people. If someone decided to take something in the above article personally, they could have addressed it directly with me, I’m always open to conversation. If they choose not to, there really isn’t much I can do about that.
I wrote about good Z scale modeling forums where Z scale modeling is at the forefront. Members discussing techniques, products and learning from each other. Some people see this as elitist. I don’t get that at all, but everyone has their views.
I spend time at night answering emails from folks with questions, new to Z scale. Several hours each week but I think it’s time very well spent. Helping out people with Z scale problems and questions is far more important to me than worrying about ruffling some feathers of folks who are just looking for an argument.
Really at this point is just a matter of opposing opinions and trying to talk someone out of theirs generally doesn’t work.
Now, I’m getting back to some Z scale modeling!
John
Ztrains
John I think a new forum would be great. My skills have improved quite a bit from the techniques that I have learned. Money for a forum will always be an issue. My job like many others is in uncertainty and I am not getting any pay raises in the near future. So, in this economy, if I have to choose I would purchase material for the layout.
Joe S.
Hi Joe,
You make good points about the paid forum concept. What I’m hearing from many folks is they want online choices, yet with a uncertain economy and “extra” money at a premium it’s tough. Mix in the size of the current user base and a paid forum in Z scale, at this time, seems unlikely.
That being said, a new forum setting isn’t out of the picture. Looking at your modeling, from the Ztrack magazine issues of 2009 and 2011, I’d like to see work like yours being talked about, techniques and photos shared, etc. This is the kind of material that helps the scale in the long run, gets people jazzed about jumping in and trying new things!
John
Ztrains
As a relative latecomer to Z, as well as this forum, I must admit to being one of those “search the forum” meanies on other websites. A good practice that I have seen, and would be good for all of us in future, regardless of the forum would be that when someone new comes on board and asks a question that has been answered ad infinitum, that some forum veteran could say, “Check out this / these thread(s); if that doesn’t answer your questions any of us would be glad to help.”
It would steer the newbie in the right direction, and would make him / her feel like they were actually being helped rather than talked down to. Just a thought. As far as a new forum is concerned, my feeling is there always room for one more.
-David
John,
I appreciate what you are trying to accomplish by starting your own forum. I’m relatively new to building in Z scale in as much as a lack of time over the years has precluded me from actually building a layout. I have been a subscriber to Ztrack since before Adam moved to Florida, so that may provide an insight into how long I’ve been looking in from the sidelines. As time is now more available to me and I’ve begun to plan the first build, we’ve exchanged several emails discussing options and answering questions. This information would certainly be helpful to other beginners as well as seasoned modelers.
Yes, there are other forums available for all of us to use but each one has its own flavor. I think that much of the success or failure of your forum would revolve around how easily the sorted information is able to be retrieved by the members (keep the junk to a minimum). We all need to remember that there are widely varying levels of both computer and modeling skills. There also seems to be a large percentage of people that pass their spare time by posting on forums without really adding anything to them. Perhaps requesting that the posting members pay a fee for membership would keep the BS down to a minimum. As the moderator, you would spend a substantial amount of time overseeing its operation. It may be a hobby for us, but we need to be respectful of your time as well. I hope that enough support can be generated that allows you to move forward with your plans.
Frank Kehr
Hi Frank,
Good to hear from you! You bring up several key points that I tend to agree with and would really like to see implemented. The biggest point in my view is the idea of keeping focused on the modeling. Sounds obvious of course but it doesn’t always work this way.
If people want to have predominately non-Z small talk, that’s fine of course, but to choose to feature it heavily on a Z forum seems an odd choice and in my view, doesn’t do much to foster learning or promote the scale.
A site that keeps on point very well is The Weathering Shop and their forum, The RustBucket. Though not Z, it’s an interesting site and forum to read through… lots of modeling and weathering information. I’d love to see this focus in Z.
On the idea of a paid site / forum, it seems that most people feel that if it’s online, it should be free, period. Whether this is right or wrong is almost irrelevant as this idea is backed up by many failed paywalls in the past. We’ve seen this when newspapers try to implement a paywall, there’s often a huge backlash.
There are some alternatives I’m looking in to and hopefully the new year will see some of these ideas come to life.
John
Ztrains
We’ve received lots of feedback on this article: some pro, some con and some offline and inexplicably unpleasant emails. On balance, it has been good to get this feedback and the next step is to decide just what to do with it all.
I do see changes coming to Ztrains.com; we have several ideas that are being kicked around right now. As with anything new, some will like the changes, some will not… but that is sort of the nature of change.
After witnessing the recent demise of the model railroad publication, Model Railroad News, it’s become (even more) clear that trying to keep a model railroad publication alive and growing, online or in print, is no easy task. Keep tuned in to see the changes coming to Ztrains.com.
John
Ztrains